Much longer than I had planned, so Ill stop here. I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. I think the scripture uses the language of both perspectives, so it is not a view without merit. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Lots of the Calvinists I have come across on the internet the past 13 15 years think you have to have advanced college degrees, spend ten years in school, be fluent in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have an exhaustive knowledge of the patristic writings, etc., to not only truly grasp Calvinism, but in their eyes, to be permitted to even begin to criticize it. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. Resistance is futile.. John Hagee. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. There are some statements Ive thought were wrong that weve let go through, because we think sometimes it is better to give a voice than stifle a hurting person because she doesnt get every last thing correct. If I remain silent, then Piper gets to define what it means to be Reformed, even though he denies a lot of Reformed theology and veers into hyper-Calvinism at times. How do you know that this, in fact, is what the Bible did and is not what God IS like? Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. First of all, I agree with what Jeff S wrote about the word leaders. Also, even if I considered someone a leader, I dont march in lockstep with him/her. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. Dee blast from the past! I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. @ JeffB: Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. God can do that. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. Here are a few more (not necessarily Arminian but non-Calvnists): John Wycliffe, Vincent Taylor, John McClintock, Thomas Coke, C.S. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. Are they involved in a joint venture? To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. That was pretty much the last straw for me. 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, "I believe" andcrossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child. Because truth that doesnt work in the grey isnt really truth. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter10], Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered (1918) [Chapter7], Norman Geisler[footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology[/footnote]. I want you to try to make the distinction between disagreeing strongly with what you say and believe, and disagreeing strongly with YOU. Very good points on suggestions for non-Cs on how to view Cs. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. whats so complicated about that? Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? Theres sort of a flip saying that goes get 10 Calvinists in a room and youll get 30 different opinions on what Calvinism is> Okay, that saying applies in many circumstances :). Do they represent your brand of reformed thought? And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. I think of it as humility and respecting my limitations, but I understand the line between humility and doublethink is quite thin. Thanks for the kind words; I can only hope that they are at least partially true. People can make Reformed theology or Calvinism whatever they want, but the WCF is a clear historical document that does a good job of giving a baseline for discussion. Most churches teach Arminian theology. Thousands of contemporary Calvinists cut their theological teeth on the teachings of Sproul and MacArthur and their respective ministries, Ligonier and Grace to You . The title suggests hes going to argue that something I dont agree with and Cavlinists historically do not believe is false. Anyway, I am not talking doctrine here. I think people are blaming a theology when the real evil is in the hearts of men. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. Some of the things he did/wrote/said kind of raise alarms, if Im honest the whole Servetus Thing, for instance, doesnt make anybody look good however you spin it. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. . And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. I think a better question would be: Why should He want to stop me? you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. But it's hard to beat J. I. Packer in any theological camp. I do not know. whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. They certainly didnt bring freedom in Christ. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Im eagerly awaiting my next blog post, too The blog kind of fell off the wayside due to some personal stuff that ate up most of my time. But the rest of the bad stuff? That's pretty darn impressive, and many many . EGOTISM. They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. A final troubling trend I believe plagues America's "Calvinist revival" is egotism. I hear the person, Calvin, discussed more than Jesus. I hear the word gospel placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. On the other thread, I commented about the issue of sovereignty and the misunderstanding a lot of people have about the concept of sovereignty. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. Sovereign Grace Ministries Founders made the list, as did John Piper, Jonathan Edwards, RC Sproul, James White and the first Southern Baptist confession of faith (which is still used at Southern and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminaries, and which even the famous non-Calvinist Paige Patterson has signed), the Abstract of Principles. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. Olson made the point that it was his goal to represent Calvinism in a way that Calvinists would agree with his characterizations, if not with his conclusions. CALVIN! But its brought up a lot, so what am I supposed to do? Or at least they start to think they have the powers and rights (divine?) So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other In time, becoming a stronger branch. whats wrong with mess anyway? What is the positional difference of man before God between a little TOTAL depravity and total total depravity? They are 1) the extent of man's depravity, 2) whether election is conditional, 3) the extent of Christ's atonement, 4) the nature of God's grace and 5) whether Christians will/must persevere in the faith. Im not saying I agree with everything in the WCF, but its a really large hurdle to overcome to show that something it directly states is misrepresentative of Reformed thology/Calvinism without a mountain of evidence to support it. @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. How one can be labeled an Arminian after a decade and a half as an SGM bobblehead is beyond me. Of course the bewildered question of why didnt God? will inevitably come up. He started out not sure where he stood. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. But I really, truly want to be done with the Paul! That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. A very messy prospect, to say the least, and it hadnt worked in centuries past. Ok, see I was looking at this in a totally different way. How dare he write such a long work! Glad to have someone who gets my background! All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. After all, there are reasons lots of men and women have bought into it over the last few hundred years. Dee, your post brought back child hood memories of Boston. I find that to be an amazing God thing. I agree with that perspective as well. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. I dont know. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html, Hester, thank you for that word pictureit will lend an air of drama to my week . Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. I pretty much agree with everything JeffB says here. Someone on another blog (I think it was another blog, unless I saw it here earlier) posted a link to this video.